i recorded it, just now watching it and so far in the first 20 minutes i'm totally pissed at both of these douchebags.

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John McCain did better toward the end when telling stories and such. Obama did better at the beginning because it seemed like he had plans #1, #2, #3, etc.

I think that Obama "won". The reasons are:

-Foreign Policy was supposed to be John McCain's strong suit. But Obama held his own. I was actually a little surprised.

-Obama looked into the camera many times. Obama looked at John McCain. McCain NEVER looked at Obama. That is not a good thing. It makes him seem uncomfortable with a lack of confidence while it made Obama seem confident and more personable. I can't stress how important looking in the camera while talking to Americans and looking at your opponent while addressing him(or her) is.

-McCain started to seem slighty like a "grumpy old man". Obama did a great job of not being an "angry black man" during his entire campaign. McCain can get away with being a grumpy old man, but it's still not a good thing.

-McCain had a good story about the bracelet that he got from a mother, but Obama totally pwn'd and deflated the story when he said "I got a bracelet too..." and he was wearing it as well.

-Obama's other strong point was when he looked at McCain and went on a list of all the things that McCain was "wrong" on. It was kinda powerful the way it was delivered.

Obama disappointed me a few times when he didn't go after a few of McCain's lies. McCain kept saying how he supports veterans, but was against the new G.I. Bill.

I think the economy questions at the beginning helped Obama greatly.

I give Obama a "B" and McCain a "C+" No one did bad. Again, this was McCain's topic...and he didn't own it like he should have.

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Enter the Age of nimbus

admin wrote Well, the long and short of it is that neither candidate really swayed anyone to the other side.  Democrats and pro-left folk are still impressed with Obama, and the Right is still supporting McCain and his experience.   I think the loser is the independents like yours truly here that are going to decide this election.  Outside of the delivery (This isn't acting school, this is about policy and not how well someone stares in the camera) we're left with a lot of open questions on what America is gonna look like with either of these guys in office.   Obama still leads by 40! electoral votes.  McCain needs to do a better job of telling independents why him over Obama, and not just focus on himself.   The Vice President debate (Which typically doesn't mean shit) is coming up.  That's gonna be a disaster for someone.  Either Palin will look like she's completely unprepared for being President, or Biden is gonna say something crazy and embarass his whole party.  That shit might be fun to watch. Other countries must wonder about us.  With all the people we have to choose from, we force people to choose between these two guys.

Kevin, this is politics. People will scrutinize for every little thing. Looking at your captive audience IS important when you are talking to them. Don't downplay it because your candidate didn't do it.

You're throwing McCain under the bus now because you think that he won't win. You always do that to justify your loses for some reason. Stick up for your guy, even if you're going down. That's what I do. You are a smart man, but I always see you come back and try to soften your losses with things by saying stuff like "well, they both suck".

No.

They both "don't suck", at least I know that my guy doesn't. Neither one of them are perfect, but can you tell me a presidential candidate that was? Who was the original candidate that you'd prefer to be in office? I'm curious to know your opinion. It seems like the only reason you like McCain is because of the shortsided view of his tax breaks. Theirs a wide ranging scope of reasons why I support Obama, and have been supporting him since the fall 2007. With Obama, yes, I'll be paying LESS taxes, but I wouldn't mind paying a little more if I knew that it was going to something worthwhile or if it would help fix the country. Outside of that, why else do you support McCain?

You say other countries are laughing at us because of our choices? Most will be laughing if Obama is skipped over for McCain. Most other countries actually like(some love) Obama. They don't talk much about McCain because he seems like "the same ole stuff" or that he doesn't represent anything to them. They feel that McCain's a continuation of Bush, no matter how true or false that may be.

I think if Obama becomes president, people will (mainly Republicans) call him out on EVERY little thing. I hate to say it, but one main reason is because he's black. Obama ran a remarkable campaign that will go down in history. He had to be very clean and smile a lot lol. The press didn't give him any free passes. Imagine if Obama called his wife a "cunt" or "trollop" the way McCain did. Imagine if Obama flipped on almost everything that he said the way McCain did. All politicians flip on stuff, but it seemed like McCain would down right forget what the heck he said 5 minutes ago.

They called Obama "elitist"...for what? Because he's smart, graduated at the top of his class, likes to eat healthy? It's like they're trying to say that Americans supposed to be dumb, plain and out of shape. The McCains are worth over 100 million dollars. The Obamas are worth a bit over 2 million. McCain got free passes all his life. His military career was due to his father and grandfather. His political career was boosted by his 2nd wife's father. He doesn't connect with "normal" Americans.

I do cringe when I see people that support McCain, mainly because I don't know why. This guy wants to freeze all spending and put it only on defense. OF COURSE! Why? Because the only thing that he half way knows is military. Who the heck is going to pay for that and how will they since he wants to cut rich people's taxes. All presidents want to leave behind a legacy. McCain's would be with military if he becomes it. Obama's seem like it would be making things work better/smarter and making America a beacon of hope and prosperity again.

Hell, when it comes down too it, I agree with what Chris Rock said. "Vote for the guy with one house, because he's scared of losing it."

nimbus/avid Kool-Aid drinker

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Enter the Age of nimbus

Nimbus, just because I am not going to vote for Obama doesn't mean I'm pro McCain. 

Obama will raise taxes.  That's a fact.  It will impact people's jobs I know.  It will hurt the company I work at, it will hurt the company my girlfriend works at.

Tell me what great thing Obama is gonna do for you that McCain isn't gonna do?  I'm curious what personal thing in your life is going to be affected in a positive way from him becoming President.  Do you not have health insurance?  Do you want to buy a Prius?  What's Obama gonna do for Nimbus?  Seriously, tell me a way in which Obama is gonna impact my life in a positive way.  Because I can't find that.

That's not to say McCain is gonna do it either.  I think both candidates cap-and-trade policy is shit.  It's gonna cause us to pay a fuck more in utility bills.  It probably doesn't matter in whatever warm state you live in.  But in snow town, raising utilities will seriously fuck us over here.  And both candidates are gonna do it.  Except Obama is gonna, supposedly, tax the oil companies and give you that money back at the end of the year at tax time.

But of course, after all the riders and changes hit the bill in congres, we won't get dick, and people on unemployment will get more benefits.  Because that's what the Democrats tried to do with the last stimulous check.  Only because Bush could veto it, did it not happen and we all got the check.  When Obama is in office, no veto.  Your refund will be redistributed to someone else.

Not to mention, the oil companies will just pick their HQ up and move to Dubai or some other friendly nation so they won't have to pay any windfall tax.  And the United States will lose a tremendous number of jobs.

Don't even get me going on Obama's crazy-ass health care plan.  The nation's auditor is running around screaming at the top of his lungs that the country is doomed because we can't afford Medicare and that we'll be bankrupting it before you and I are old enough to hit it.  Now we're gonna create a NEW medical service before the old one is fixed.  They can't even fix Social Security and it's only off by two percentage points in funding.  Now we're gonna have a MASSIVE healthcare system that is funded how? 

How is it funded?  Do you know?  I will tell you.  It is funded by forcing all employers who do not offer health care to pay a percentage of payroll into the plan.

You might think, "Great, that means those places that hire people have to give their employees health care."

And those places that can't afford it will let someone go.  And maybe they'll go out of business.  Or at the very least, they'll lower people's wages to offset the increased percentage that now goes to the Government.  So now, people get paid less.

But here's where the rub really is.  What if you are self employed?  Now you are FORCED to have health insurance on the Government's plan.  Even if you're healthy and happy.  Your pay is stripped out and distributed to the national system.  If you're a woman selling skirts you made on Ebay, you gotta buy health insurance for yourself or pay into the plan. 

So independent contractor's rates will go up.  Inflation will rise.  Paychecks will get lower. 

And then it gets worse, because health insurance plans will drop the high risk and put them on the national plan.  Keeping the good insurance for the healthy, and putting the most sick of our group in the national plan. 

So it'll be the bottomless pit of financing and become a gigantic dept that the American tax payer can't pay.

How can anyone seriously think after looking at how fucked up Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are that we'd be better off with a National health care system? 

But see, what they'll probably do (And aren't saying cause it'd doom the race) is they are gonna change Medicare and Medicaid to be part of this new system.  Erase the problem, and no more problem!

It's so fucked up.  They should be forced to fix Social Security and Medicare before creating a new health care plan that we all have to pay MORE money into.

The country is fucking broke.  BROKE.  There's no money for anything because Bush and the Republicans spent the fuck out of it all.  And now we're gonna get heavily taxed in various new creative ways.  Inflation is going to rise more than it has.  Businesses are going to be beaten down with new taxes and forced plans.  And people are gonna be out of work.

I believe that with McCain in office, the Democrats and Republicans are forced to work together, and come up with solutions that both sides can agree on.  With Obama in office you are giving the Democrats a blank check to experiment with people's lives.

The world won't end if Obama is elected.  Some good will surely come out of it.  But there will be a lot of bad.  We'll all be witnesses to it soon.

Also, just for the record.  I live in Cleveland.  Cleveland always... ALWAYS... Goes Left.  So if you're trying to persuade me not to vote for McCain you shouldn't bother.  My vote doesn't count here.  When I go vote, I'm deciding who I want to represent my Ward in local elections.  You should pester someone who lives in Cincinati.  They can swing down there.

And just for the record, I'm not gonna debate politics with you.  I thought about not responding to this one.  But then you'd get all uppity about how I'm cowering away when faced with an opposing viewpoint or something.  So I thought I'd give you my reasons, and you're welcome to show me what good thing Obama is gonna do that will impact me in a positive way that counters these known negative things, and maybe I'll change my mind.  But I'm not gonna have a fight about it.  I'm extremely busy with projects and have no time for politics in a forum.  But I'll read what you have to say.

Kevin

Since I got to your taxation one later, let me point out one more thing.

The tax cut already happened.  The difference between McCain and Obama here is that McCain makes it permanent.  But Obama wants to roll it back for those making over $200,000.

That math you have is fuzzy.  It's actually very cut and dry.

Except neither McCain or Obama decide what your taxes are.  That's congress.

Congress will get their hands on the tax cut and change it in ways not promised since congress didn't make any of the campaign promises.  The difference is that with McCain in office he could veto it.  Obama will just approve whatever tax hike Congress wants to pass.

I think in Nimbus's world, the President is king and can make laws by decree.  In the real world, the President makes promises about things he'd like to do if he were king, but in reality he just gets what Congress gives him.

You and I might see a new tax cut.  But it'll be offset by increases everywhere else.  They are just getting more creative in the way they are planning to tax us.

You didn't say why you are voting McCain, Kevin. You seem to just be voting against Obama. Tell me this, what is McCain's health care plans? What is his thoughts on SS? He doesn't even know how it works. He doesn't have a plan to even try to fix the economy. "The Straight Talk Express" let it slip some months ago that he doesn't know much on the economy. Since his campaign is now full with Karl Rove's henchmen, they made him change that story.

I'm not trying to change your mind. That's a hard thing to do, being how self-righteous you are. And for the most part, you deserve to be.

You call me "uppity". Are you being racist? Just kidding.

Either president is going to have a hard to setting things right, seeing the shit that Bush is handing them. I don't think that McCain is going to do all the "across the isle" shit that you are talking about. Hell, there are Republicans that have commercials in which they keep talking about how they worked with Obama to do crap. I'm sure that it couldn't have been too much, but most seem like they'd rather work with him than McCain. McCain is a blowhard hothead. He is not what is needed in a time like this. Even looking at the debates, Obama would "agree" with McCain on stuff. McCain wouldn't even frickin' look at him lol.

McCain flew his ass to DC to act like he was helping the bailout plan. Supposedly, they had a plan until McCain got there and injected politics into it. Then the deal was off. How's that for working across the isles?

McCain sold himself out to try to win an election. You know that. This isn't the McCain of 2000. This is the ass kissing McCain that will do anything to win. Why the hell else would he pick Sarah Palin? For her credentials?

BULLSHIT.

He got her to shore up the conservative Republicans and to get some of the Hillary votes. Now people see that she doesn't know shit from shinobi and they are turning on her. It's funny that they won't allow anyone to talk to her, and she's one heartbeat away from the presidency. McCain is 72 with melanoma...and he doesn't want to release his medical records.

If McCain wanted a woman, he should have gotten Hutchingson from Texas. But I think she's pro-choice, so he didn't do it...or maybe she wasn't pretty enough. McCain would look better if he got Romney, since people feel that he'd be good for the economy, but he's a Mormon. You gotta be a "God-fearing, George W. Bush votin' Christian" to get those red states. Huckabee could have helped a lot. But now McCain is a fucking joke to me. He really wanted Lieberman, but the Republicans would have revolted at their klan rally, er, Republican Convention.

Sheep, sad but there are some whites that will not vote for Obama because he's black. You know, "the hard working people", also known as trailer trash. There's people that wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. It's just the way some people are.

But I think that "green" is going to be the most important color for this election.

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Enter the Age of nimbus